Crazy idea....

[theholycow]

Edit: Skip down to my next post for Cliff's notes.

In about a year I'm going to need a cheap, fuel efficient commute car. I had some ideas up my sleeve but I got a new one. I'm going to need help planning it.

What if I make my 1980 Buick LeSabre 4.1 V6 into a DD? With fuel injection and a manual transmission I am 100% confident that I can get 25mpg. Seriously...I get 150% of EPA rating on my current commute car. I may be able to break 30mpg.

It's got 38,000 miles on it and a lot of years of rotting in the yard. I think the engine is substantially in fine condition. The carburetor needs work severely.

I know it won't be fast. I don't give a rat's ass. I'm in no hurry. I don't care if the shifter is ugly. It doesn't have to pass emissions testing; it's old enough to be exempt in RI.

The help I need is planning what parts will fit for the TBI and manual transmission upgrades. The Buick 4.1 engine is sought after by Jeep builders so I expect I should be able to find some info there.

I'm thinking a TBI S10 should be able to donate almost everything. The only issue is the transmission in those may have its 5th too tall; it may be .63, which I think would require me to change out the rear end gears (added cost). The same source says TPI S10s have a .74 5th gear, which would be perfect. I'm not familiar with TPI. Is TPI another form of throttle body injection?

So what do you think? Is it possible to modify the car the way I want to?

[stonehenge]

:insane:

[theholycow]

Damnit, I overdid it again.

Cliff's notes:
Does anyone know anything about parts compatibility for upgrading my 1980 Buick 4.1 V6 to fuel injection and a 5 speed manual? I think a S10 can be a donor of almost everything I need.

[2005_Silverado]

probably possible...dont think it will be cheap :think:

[theholycow]

If I can't get it done cheap I'll have to abandon the idea...and the car will continue rotting in the yard while I drive something miserable to work every day.

[shootermcgavin003]

is it a 200 4r od?

---------- Post added at 11:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:15 PM ----------

and the 4.1 and 3.8 are the same engine just bigger bore theres plenty of efi and turbo gn pulling down 30 mpg with the 3.8 and 200-4r

---------- Post added at 11:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:17 PM ----------

me thats what i would do is a 200-4r auto and efi parts off a 3.8 regal

my 200-4r cost me 50 bucks and would drop right in your car

[Cez★]

ls1 that beesh

[shootermcgavin003]

ls1 that beesh

you always leave a buick buick powered :slap:

---------- Post added at 11:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:29 PM ----------

plus you could make that into a gn motor pretty easy

[Cez★]

:shake:

[theholycow]

I'm 95% sure it's a TH350.

I don't want an automatic or a different engine...this engine with fuel injection and a 5 speed manual would be damn near a perfect car for me.

---------- Post added at 07:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:34 PM ----------

Is mine the 90° or the 60° engine? How do I tell?

[shootermcgavin003]

I'm 95% sure it's a TH350.

I don't want an automatic or a different engine...this engine with fuel injection and a 5 speed manual would be damn near a perfect car for me.

---------- Post added at 07:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:34 PM ----------

Is mine the 90° or the 60° engine? How do I tell?

90 i think

but to do a manual its going to be alot of work for a weak transmission that will net less mpg. no chevrolet trans will bolt to it that im aware of being its bop pattern. but again the 200-4r will drop in handle 9 sec 1/4 miles and net better mpg then any manual you could buy.

---------- Post added at 11:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:39 PM ----------

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buick_V6_engine

---------- Post added at 11:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:41 PM ----------

tpi is tune port

[theholycow]

I don't care about 9 second 1/4 mile times. I don't care if my 1/4 mile time is 90 seconds. Seriously, this is going to be a SLOW car.

No automatic can beat the fuel economy I can get from a manual, but if it was possible I'd still prefer the manual. I want to shift my gears. I enjoy shifting.

I have to believe that plenty of Jeep guys have run manuals behind the Buick V6.

So, how does tuned port work? Will I need an intake manifold or can I use my old one with it? I know with TBI I don't have to touch the intake manifold.

[shootermcgavin003]

I don't care about 9 second 1/4 mile times. I don't care if my 1/4 mile time is 90 seconds. Seriously, this is going to be a SLOW car.

No automatic can beat the fuel economy I can get from a manual, but if it was possible I'd still prefer the manual. I want to shift my gears. I enjoy shifting.

I have to believe that plenty of Jeep guys have run manuals behind the Buick V6.

So, how does tuned port work? Will I need an intake manifold or can I use my old one with it? I know with TBI I don't have to touch the intake manifold.

im trying to explain the 200-4r has a .67 od and deeper take off gears than a manual so it will get as good mpg actually better than the s10 with a .74 od. but if you want a manual have at it man but be prepared to find something from a jeep making it work by changing master cylinders cut the floor cuting the drive shaft modding the the cross member. making custom peddles. not a cheap deal. tune port is its own manifold you would need one from a regal that had it.

oh i meant it it would take 9 seconds as in its tougher than shit

[theholycow]

.67 is too tall. I think .74 might be slightly too tall. The car has 2.73 rear end. 70mph will be 1600RPM with .74...should be just about right if it makes the torque it should make.

Pedals shouldn't be custom, AFAIK the car was offered with a 3-on-the-tree manual.

---------- Post added at 08:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:28 PM ----------

Oh, and no auto in this car will help my non-highway fuel economy; only 40% of my commute is highway.

[shootermcgavin003]

.67 is too tall. I think .74 might be slightly too tall. The car has 2.73 rear end. 70mph will be 1600RPM with .74...should be just about right if it makes the torque it should make.

Pedals shouldn't be custom, AFAIK the car was offered with a 3-on-the-tree manual.

---------- Post added at 08:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:28 PM ----------

Oh, and no auto in this car will help my non-highway fuel economy; only 40% of my commute is highway.

well im gonna disagree the th350 and the 200 are the same trans but one has od one dont so on the non highway its going to get just about as good

373 gears with the 200 ftw

but i will see what i can find on manul swaps to a buick v6

[theholycow]

:shake: I agree, the 200R4 vs. TH350 won't make much/any difference when not on the highway.

[shootermcgavin003]

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/transmission-talk/166589-manual-transmission.html

---------- Post added at 12:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:43 AM ----------

:shake: I agree, the 200R4 vs. TH350 won't make much/any difference when not on the highway.

not unless you drop the rear gears then it would be good driving car comparable to a fullsize truck

[theholycow]

Nice find! I keep digging for this stuff but I haven't found that thread.

Thinking about the 3.73, if I did that then I could put in a T56. That would be a whole shitload of win.

[shootermcgavin003]

looks like its a pretty expensive bellhousing

[stonehenge]

1. Sell Buick to someone who wants to fix it up with current tranny
2. Buy an older 4cyl stick that gets good mpg for like 1-2k
3. ???
4. Profit

:crazy:

[shootermcgavin003]

1. Sell Buick to someone who wants to fix it up with current tranny
2. Buy an older 4cyl stick that gets good mpg for like 1-2k
3. ???
4. Profit

:crazy:

its his papas car and was left to him he wont sell that

plus it be a buick come on

[stonehenge]

oh snaps then fuck no

And I definitely can appreciate an old buick, it just seems like a lot of work to convert it from auto to manual, but if the car itself has enough sentimental value then its prob worth it. Plus the fact that the engine has like no miles on it is nice.

[shootermcgavin003]

oh snaps then fuck no

And I definitely can appreciate an old buick, it just seems like a lot of work to convert it from auto to manual, but if the car itself has enough sentimental value then its prob worth it. Plus the fact that the engine has like no miles on it is nice.

thats y i was talking about the 200 and 373 gears would take about 10 mins to swap and give the same benifit :shrug:

---------- Post added at 01:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:59 AM ----------

but i try to help either way

[theholycow]

Sentimental, plus the whole point of the idea was that I could drive a nice big comfy buick instead of a little 4 banger econobox.

Market value on the car is probably less than scrap value. The engine and transmission are fundamentally good, but the Quadrajet pain-in-the-ass carburetor needs to be rebuilt, it needs a whole exhaust, half the body panels need repair, the interior door panels and much of the dash needs replacement...

Anyway, the "buy a beater" idea was my original idea but I was chewing on this alternative today. It would cost more than a beater but I would try to scrape up the money if I could enjoy the Buick, enjoy shifting, and still get acceptable fuel economy.

[shootermcgavin003]

thought the body was solid on your car

---------- Post added at 01:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:06 AM ----------

and a eldebrock carb would help alot also

my car with the 401 and 200-4r will pull down 20 mpg

[SarkOzy]

Rick,

you can buy kits to slap the GM TBI system on damn near anything. It'd solve all issues related to carburetors and ethanol based fuels along with cold starting. That's the easy part. Hell on tunerpro my truck shows 23mpg at 55mph on level ground, I'd say you'd get an easy 20-23 on the highway, in town though the system has its drawbacks. Upping the fuel pressure for better throttle response in town KILLS city fuel economy. I found this out spending a week in south Florida. :roflmao: Converting it to a manual is a lot of work. LIke Jeff said the 2004R is a damn good transmission. I'd take one in place of a 700R4 if I could. :read:

[shootermcgavin003]

a good carb with a electric choke would do good also like i was saying edlebrock 600 cfm would be perfect and is about 200 bucks

[theholycow]

No, there's lots of little damage. Every plastic piece is rotted away. There's a big gash in one of the doors. There's a couple bits of damage that I can't remember what's wrong. The rest needs paint.

Ok, I'm reviewing photos now (too dark out to see it IRL). Not as bad as I thought. Passenger side door and whatever that huge panel is behind the door (is it still a quarter panel when it's as a large as my VW?) need bondo. The rest of the sheet metal is ok. The wheels need to be totally restored. The dash doesn't NEED complete replacement.

Anyway, it's still worthless to sell, but worth plenty to keep if I can just find a way to use it. It rots in my yard because I can't afford a single cent to put into a car that doesn't drive to work.

[shootermcgavin003]

pics again

[theholycow]

Here's what The Encyclopedia Of American Cars has to say about my car:
Weight: 3,400 pounds
Price: $7,100
Produced: 20,561
Engine: 252ci V6, 3.97 bore x 3.40 stroke, 125hp.

---------- Post added at 09:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:17 PM ----------

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_oNsRR_T1Qx0/R-Vw19yTlqI/AAAAAAAABuE/myCLaiHXefE/s640/IMG_0452.jpg
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_oNsRR_T1Qx0/R-Vw69yTlrI/AAAAAAAABuQ/_XjbFoLtRE4/s640/IMG_0453.jpg
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_oNsRR_T1Qx0/R-VxA9yTlsI/AAAAAAAABuY/iaJBgzo1Xtk/s640/IMG_0454.jpg
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_oNsRR_T1Qx0/R-VxF9yTltI/AAAAAAAABuk/mkmORPnlGSQ/s640/IMG_0455.jpg
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_oNsRR_T1Qx0/R-VxKtyTluI/AAAAAAAABus/MmFVUs91jOQ/s640/IMG_0456.jpg
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_oNsRR_T1Qx0/R-VxldyTl0I/AAAAAAAABvo/3tpx864IJbU/s640/IMG_0462.jpg
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_oNsRR_T1Qx0/R-VxydyTl3I/AAAAAAAABwI/fMfqRwE-cBQ/s640/IMG_0465.jpg
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_oNsRR_T1Qx0/R-Vx29yTl4I/AAAAAAAABwQ/X-Rc5v-2JYw/s640/IMG_0466.jpg
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_oNsRR_T1Qx0/R-Vx7dyTl5I/AAAAAAAABwc/JP1C1DYvr04/s640/IMG_0467.jpg
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_oNsRR_T1Qx0/R-Vyk9yTmEI/AAAAAAAAByI/UM5wMVPx5zo/s640/IMG_0478.jpg

[shootermcgavin003]

your car is lighter than mine i think

---------- Post added at 01:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:21 AM ----------

but a little paint work and a new bumper filler for the rear and your good and i think you could glass yours back up

as for wheel thats polish and some black paint

[theholycow]

All I know is I'm itching to drive it but it needs work just to be drivable, and a lot of changes before I can afford to spend money insuring and DDing it.

[shootermcgavin003]

All I know is I'm itching to drive it but it needs work just to be drivable, and a lot of changes before I can afford to spend money insuring and DDing it.

man i could drop a grand in that thing and have it get 25 mpg and be sweet as shit actually

[theholycow]

When the weather stabilizes at a decent temperature I can get back out there and continue the work I was doing in the fall. I have to gently get the corroded gas line un-stuck from the carburetor so I can change the fuel filter. I can hope that it will run somewhat decent after that...yeah, sure...

[shootermcgavin003]

When the weather stabilizes at a decent temperature I can get back out there and continue the work I was doing in the fall. I have to gently get the corroded gas line un-stuck from the carburetor so I can change the fuel filter. I can hope that it will run somewhat decent after that...yeah, sure...

honestley loose that quad get a aftermarket carb my 350 stumbled like crazy

[theholycow]

I hate carburetors.

[shootermcgavin003]

I hate carburetors.

well you just gotta know what your doing with one really

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-9906/ this would make life so much better that and a cheap electric pump for 30 bucks

---------- Post added at 01:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:45 AM ----------

http://www.gn1performance.com/prodimages/large/ChampionIntake-1.jpg

this and a turbo though would be pure sex

[theholycow]

BTW, my 1987 Cadillac Deville from the same Encyclopedia:
3,370 lbs, $21,659, 129,521 units produced
V8, 249ci, 3.46 bore x 3.30 stroke, 130hp

[shootermcgavin003]

the buick engine prob makes more tq

[theholycow]

No turbo for me! Totally not interested.

Anyway, that 4.1 V8 was torquey like a diesel. The 4.1 V6, when it ran right, definitely did not have that torque...but I suspect it would with decent fuel injection/carb.

[shootermcgavin003]

No turbo for me! Totally not interested.

Anyway, that 4.1 V8 was torquey like a diesel. The 4.1 V6, when it ran right, definitely did not have that torque...but I suspect it would with decent fuel injection/carb.

it should be with a proper tune up

---------- Post added at 02:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:43 AM ----------

papas 69 skyalrk with a th350 and 350 4 barrell would get 21-22 mpg so your not that far off really

what does it get now usually

---------- Post added at 02:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:45 AM ----------

i want something like yours to dump the 350 i got into actually

[theholycow]

I think I got 12 or 15 from it, but it may already have been running badly by then. I never got to drive it much. Fucking lack of money getting in the way...

[stonehenge]

nice buick cao

however it reminds me how rustless AZ is :(

[theholycow]

For a 30 year old RI car, it's pretty rust-free. :(

[SarkOzy]

i still i had teh dinero to be ze rabbit

[theholycow]

LOL QUE?

If you mean keeping the Rabbit, there's a few problems with that...
- I can't afford monthly payments
- I can't afford full coverage insurance
- I don't want to end up with an old VW that has all those nasty old-VW problems

[SarkOzy]

i meant buy ze rabbit. lOL

---------- Post added at 09:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:29 AM ----------

we dont sell those type of commuter cars down here.

[theholycow]

Yah, I know buy the VW...can't afford it. To buy it I'll need a loan that I may not be able to get and definitely can't pay, as well as full coverage insurance. Then eventually I'll end up with aging-VW problems.

[SarkOzy]

:bawl:

---------- Post added at 10:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:06 AM ----------

btw Rick there are tons of 4.1/tbi swaps on Jeep forums.

[theholycow]

:shake: That's about right. Did you forget how po' I am?

[stonehenge]

Yeah our TDI Jetta got expensive as fuck once the miles got high and things started taking shits. Fuel pump, water pump, alternator, lots of other crap, interior pieces coming loose, etc. :insane: But when it is fully working its a nice car lol.

Oh and its a bitch to replace anything on that car, NOTHING is easy to get to/remove. :down:

Right now something in the car drains the battery overnight. No one we know can figure out what is sucking it dry so my dad put a switch on the battery that you have to turn off every time you leave the car overnight. So don't try anything stupid like saving radio presets :roflmao:

[theholycow]

Parts costs and electrical gremlins are exactly my fear.

[stonehenge]

And if there is something that you srsly can't fix or don't want to fix, then it will be $$$$$ to take it anywhere. Stupid VW :crossarms:

If it wasn't so pricey, I probably would have bought it off my parents instead of buying the Nizz. It is a 4 door, has storage room in the back, heated seats, nice speakers, drives nice and smooth, etc. All better than the Nizz but such a bitch to repair and so expensive. I've repaired a few things on the Nizz and wasn't very expensive at all. Would have been even cheaper and easier if it was an old buick I bet lol

[theholycow]

Would have been even cheaper and easier if it was an old buick I bet lol

Parts are probably very cheap for this car. Insurance is cheaper than any other vehicle in existence.

So, thanks to Jeff's find turbobuick.com find, I'm compiling lots of information on manual transmission swaps now.

Looking back at the other upgrade, a TBI may be significantly easier and something I can do myself. Any input on what would make the best donor vehicle, what I'd need, and how hard it would be to do? Let's assume that I'm dead-set against carburetors (since I am).

---------- Post added at 09:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:06 PM ----------

Pedals shouldn't be custom, AFAIK the car was offered with a 3-on-the-tree manual.

Grr...I can no longer find any evidence to support this except the Haynes and Chiltons manuals which may be referring to earlier years.

[Manbearpig]

I have a pcm out of a v6 TPI fierro if you want

[theholycow]

Thanks for the offer, but I think I'm probably going to need to get everything all together in a wrecked donor car.

[stonehenge]

duramax it

[theholycow]

:hmm: I considered going diesel (not duramax) at one point but I really want to keep most of the engine.

[stonehenge]

diesel og buick = :drool:

but yeah, an engine with that little mileage is nice

[theholycow]

Plus, the 4.1 is a good engine.

The OG Buick diesel that was offered in the diesel OG Buicks is NOT :drool:, it's a bunch of fail. Now, if I didn't care about the 4.1, I might consider a small modern turbodiesel that's friendly for WVO. That'd be BAMF.

[stonehenge]

Yeah I know that some of the older GM diesels were POSs. The new baby diesels are fairly BAMF.

[theholycow]

Win! Look what I found: http://www.forums.b-body.org/viewtopic.php?t=51
That's a thread on a B-body forum for a 1982 Olds Delta 88 that's currently getting exactly the manual transmission conversion I want.

---------- Post added at 09:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:50 PM ----------

Possible win: http://www.f2bkit.com/
Machine shop that makes F-body pedal adapters to fit 91-96 B-bodies. They're relatively local. I'm going to email to ask if they've ever done anything for a 1980.

---------- Post added at 09:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:10 PM ----------

Er, nebbermind, they want $426 for the kit they already know how to make...

[stonehenge]

$$$: I think your auto > manual conversion will need it

[theholycow]

I am determined. I will do it cheap. I will do it ghetto. I will enjoy driving it to work. I'll ask on lots of forums so I can get lots of ideas.

Or I'll give up.

[Manbearpig]

6.2l diesel IMO

[stonehenge]

Peterbilt -> Buick transplant

[Manbearpig]

Hell if an OOBS can get 20+mpg CITY with a 6.2l diesel than I bet that Buick can too :crazy:

[shootermcgavin003]

200-4r and manual valve body? just a thouhgt i had.

---------- Post added at 07:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:16 PM ----------

Hell if an OOBS can get 20+mpg CITY with a 6.2l diesel than I bet that Buick can too :crazy:

cousin had a delta 88 diesel

got about 28-29 mpg

[theholycow]

I gotta have the clutch pedal and the H-gate. I joined that B-body forum where the dude with the '82 is currently doing the exact same thing. I'm going to copy him.

[stonehenge]

copycao

[shootermcgavin003]

im gonna mention the 200-4r again then ill hush but hear me out. i paid 50 bucks for a 200-4r. you could buy one sell your th350 for the money you have in it. you may need some 81-85 parts like the od indicator or brake switch but thats what 50 bucks at most. the 200-4r can be manually shifted look at the hurst olds from the 80s. so your out no money and now have a od trans. for about 60 more bucks you could find a set of 373 gears from anything that has a 8.5 rear. slap a nice carb on it and loose the mech pump for a electric. so you spent 300-400hundred bucks and look 26 mpg and the car probablly makes quite a bit more power and you can drive. the manual swap alone will cost you that if not more and your still gonna have change the fuel system to get it up to par and all. the tbi system would be quite a bit more expensive btw you gonna have to change quite a bit and a tbi gets no better mpg that a 4b carb i wouldnt waste time it. put that money toward the body.

---------- Post added at 07:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:41 PM ----------

im done i still love ya i just dont want you to sink a fortune in it for less than stellar results

[theholycow]

:shake: I appreciate it. This is one of those times when everybody is sure that my idea is the wrong way to do it but I know that it will work right for me.

If it has an automatic in it, I won't want to drive it every day. If I don't want to drive it then it rots in my yard.

The carburetor might stay if I can make it behave. I'd rather not spend all the money on the TBI, I just want the starting and driving behavior that I've come to know and love. An electric fuel pump may help.

[shootermcgavin003]

:shake: I appreciate it. This is one of those times when everybody is sure that my idea is the wrong way to do it but I know that it will work right for me.

If it has an automatic in it, I won't want to drive it every day. If I don't want to drive it then it rots in my yard.

The carburetor might stay if I can make it behave. I'd rather not spend all the money on the TBI, I just want the starting and driving behavior that I've come to know and love. An electric fuel pump may help.

with a electric choke and fuel pump life would be fine with the carb

---------- Post added at 08:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:00 PM ----------

have you considered a manual valve body in the auto just asking?

[theholycow]

I have, but it just won't give me what I want. Choosing what gear it's in is only part of what I want. I enjoy everything about driving with a manual transmission.

[shootermcgavin003]

I have, but it just won't give me what I want. Choosing what gear it's in is only part of what I want. I enjoy everything about driving with a manual transmission.

oic well i will help best i can

you still would be better to do the higher od and deeper gears even on the manual btw

[theholycow]

My plan is to risk going marginally too high with my OD, and then if necessary I'll go with a shorter rear end. If not, I've saved the cost of doing anything with the rear end.

Acceptable for me is a lot taller than most people would accept. I want to have to downshift to maintain highway speed uphill.

The T5 apparently was available with its 5th gear as .86, .76, .73, .72, .68, .62.
- .86 would put me at 2050RPM for 70mph; that ought to be perfect. That will give me 50mph at 1450RPM.
- .72 and .68 put me at 1700/1650RPM at 70mph; I'm not entirely sure if the 4.1 can do it. I think it can. It does 50mph fine at 1700RPM with its existing 3rd gear.
- The .62 is probably too tall.

The T5 from an early S10 spreads from 4.03 to .86, which ought to be great for this car, although I'd hate to risk leaving some unused cruising torque. Its shifter position may be too far back to be compatible with the bench seat, even if I hack up the handle. Apparently a Camaro T5 has its shifter much further forward, and is what that guy with the '82 is using.

[shootermcgavin003]

the .68 gear would be better and with the low gear rears it would give you the take off power that you need

like i said to those 8.5 gears be cheap and in everything

most s10s had 4.10s just to compare